I think the best word to describe my family is rainbow. Not only do we come in all different shades (of skin color, ha!), but we also come in all different shades of personalities. We've got my mom, the powerhouse single mother who made a living out of saving people's lives as an OR nurse, lived in a variety of cool yoga ranches and ashrams, and raised three awesome children. There's my big sister Kumari, the surgeon, the fiesty, the loving, the intelligent, my sissle. Then there's Adrien, the subject of this installment of the interview series I'm doing on my immediate family--My Rainbow Family.
Kumari and Adrien recently agreed to do separate interviews with me via FaceTime to discuss their experiences growing up mixed, and growing up light-skinned. Kumari's interview can be found here.My brother has always been the calm one in the family. Sure, he can get riled up just like anybody else, but when compared to me, my sister, and my mother, he's 100% chill. He's a voice of reason in our family, and I'm grateful for the times he's calmed me down after a fight, or pushed me to go further in life. Adrien's taught me how to brush people's ignorance off with a smile, how to walk away from things when there is no reason to get yourself involved, and how to love the creative parts of our DNA by chasing careers that will encourage us to thrive. I've seen him grow a lot over the course of our lives, and I can say with complete honesty that I'm so, so proud to call him my brother. Through all the different hair styles, hair colors, jobs, and dreams, Adrien has never changed who he is at the core--my brother, my bubba.
Adrien's interview, unlike Kumari's, happened one night after I'd gotten home from one of my late night classes. We'd had some trouble with scheduling a time for an interview because of our conflicting busy schedules, but finally...we'd picked a day and time. I got home from class, set myself up, and we FaceTimed. Of course, there were some technical difficulties that we had to deal with (all on my end, obviously), but once those were sorted out, we got down to business.
I asked Adrien a lot of the same questions that I asked Kumari, and, as you could expect, the answers varied in may different ways. A lot of their thoughts on being mixed are the same, but a lot of them are also different. I started out by asking him how our experiences as mixed people had differed, and how they were the same. His response coalesced with his classic chill Adrien demeanor.
"I think that, I don't know...I don't really surround myself with people who really care about that kind of thing. So, since I was...at least out of high school, I haven't really had a lot of issues. Even when I was in high school I didn't have many issues."
His response lined up with some of the things Kumari had said, but I pointed out one of the major differences. "Kumari had more issues in high school, but as soon as she got out of Neversink, it was a lot different. There was way less discrimination, not saying that there wasn't any, but she didn't feel like she was as different as she was at our school."
"Yeah," Adrien said. "I guess I would agree with that. And I would say that you probably had a different experience, since you don't really look mixed. So, you might have had the reverse."
"What do you mean?" I asked, curious to see where this was going.
"You didn't experience anything in high school, and maybe you're experiencing more in college? I don't know."
"Well, I think I did experience things in high school, but it was from a different kind of perspective, because I can pass, and I pass every day as white, so people are more likely to be racist around me, even if they know. I remember there was a guy who made a joke about AIDS and black people, saying that AIDS happened because a black guy fucked a monkey in Africa." This prompted some laughter from both of us at the stupidity of the joke. I mean, really? That's the best you've got? I continued. "And he knew, like people knew that I was black, but they didn't care. You know? Like something Kumari and I talked about was how one of my best friends throughout high school constantly told me I wasn't black, which was honestly rude and mean of her to do. She would be like, 'You're white. Look at you, look at your skin. It's light.' And it's just like, 'You know who my mom is, you know...you've known this since we were in kindergarten.' I don't know why is has to be an issue."
Next, I asked Adrien if he'd ever unintentionally passed, for white, for something other than black, etc.
"I think most people have no idea what I am," he said honestly. "I don't think anybody literally has a clue. That's why when somebody usually starts to feel more comfortable around me, one of the first questions they ask is, 'So...what are you?'"
"Do they play the guessing game?" I asked, thinking back to the end of my conversation with Kumari.
"Not really, I usually just tell them," he laughed.
"With me, it's kind of like the guessing game but switched around," I said. "Like, as soon as they find out it's like, 'Oh yeah, I can see it. You've got the flat nose, you've got the facial structure, you've got the big butt.'"
"Some black people notice that, like they'll know right off the bat! It was funny, the other day, I was walking down the street at like 8:00pm, and...I love when this happens, it makes me feel so funny...but some 40 year old black woman's walking down the street towards me and she looks at me and she goes, "MmmmmhhhHHHMMM, hey good lookin'!" and just gives me the up and down. And she knew that I've got a little bit of the brother in me."
"That's funny!" I said. "I think people tend to...if they're more open, racially...they can pick you out."
Writing this story now reminds me of a conversation I had with a classmate just a week ago about my race. He told me that from the second he met me during our freshman year of college, he knew that I couldn't just be white. He could just tell that there was something else going on in my genes. And honestly? That made me feel amazing, that recognition.
"So, do you, or have you ever struggled with your racial identity?" I asked, not quite sure what kind of answer I would get. "You know that I've had some issues with how I identify or how people try to identify me."
"I can't say that I ever have!" Adrien said confidently. "Maybe a little in high school, but I wouldn't say struggle. More like being annoyed that people are idiots. I'm pretty comfortable."
"That's good! That's a good thing. You and Kumari are similar in that way. So, what are some of the stupidest things people have said to you about race, or about your race?"
"Hmmm..." Adrien thought for a moment. "Stupid things, huh?"
"Or racist things."
"Well, one kid used to love to call me the n-word. Other than that, not much."
"I'll find him and I'll punch him in the face," I joked, even though most of me was pretty serious.
"Some douchebag kid. He would do it in a pretending kind of way. But he was a douche. Other than that...I'm sure Mom's told you the story about me not being allowed in the Cub Scouts?"
"Yeah, but I've only ever heard it from her."
"I don't really know the story that well, I was like four or five years old. I just remember something about walking into a Cub Scout meeting...or her not feeling comfortable to let me stay...you'll have to ask her the exact story."
Here's the exact story:
Adrien wanted to join the Cub Scouts. So, he and my mother went to the school to sign up. They were waiting on line, and my mother noticed that the den mother was only calling white people that were behind her in line to register their children. My mother told Adrien that they were leaving, and he asked, "Why?" My mother said, "If the pack leader (who was one of Adrien's best friend's father) is allowing these sorts of things to go on, you're not going to be a part of this." The funny part is, my mother ended up having to take care of the den mother in the hospital, and she (the den mother) was ashamed of how she had treated my mother and my brother. My mom, when I asked her about it, said that people really can change, despite their initial bigotry.
BACK TO THE INTERVIEW!
Next, I asked Adrien the question that had both me and Kumari stumped: Do you think that it’s almost harder to be a mixed woman because of white people’s obsession with white people’s obsession with the “exotic” like you aren’t quite white, you aren’t quite black? Do you think that mixed women/women of color have it harder than mixed men/men of color? I assured him that I knew that it was a tough question. His response was honest.
"Let's come back to it. I'll think about it."
Happy with the thought that we would spend a good deal of time at the end of the conversation talking about this heavy question, I continued with the interview. "So, how do you deal with the assumptions that people make about you because of your race before they get to know who you are, or how you identify racially? Like, if people assume that you're Hispanic or Latino or something (cue laughter from Adrien). Do you think people assume things about you when they first meet you?"
"Yeah, definitely," Adrien said. "But their assumptions are always wrong, so I kind of enjoy hearing what those assumptions are."
"What are some of the assumptions that you've heard?"
"I mean, you name it! Italian, definitely Hispanic, mixed anything...I guess that's it. A lot of Hispanic."
"Mom gets mistaken for being Hispanic or Latina all the time," I said, remembering the time my mom went into a bakery and the Latino man behind the counter started to speak very rapid Spanish to her, complaining about a Hasidic woman who had wasted his time a few seconds beforehand. My mom's response? "No habla!"
"People start speaking Spanish to you because of how you look, and I'm just like, 'Sorry bud!'"
We laughed. "Kumari and I talked a lot about the guessing game, like how people need to know what you are."
"Yeah," he said, "it's not generally in an entirely negative way."
"People are just curious," I said. "But it's negative in that they feel they have to know what you are, because it's still so important to people."
"They just wanna know why I'm so damn good lookin'!" Oh, Adrien. Ever the jokester.
"They want to know where they can get that complexion! They're like, 'What ethnic blend created this???'" We laughed again. Adrien said he wasn't about to give anybody the secret recipe, because our DNA worked hard to create such a plethora of racial features. Next, I asked him if he'd ever felt like he had to prove himself because of the color of his skin, or if he'd ever felt like he had to prove he wasn't a stereotype. His answer was quick.
"No."
"That's good!" I said, happy with his response, because it's always good to see that we're starting to move past some of these negative things. "These are good things."
"What did Kumari say?"
"She said that it was mainly in high school, in our hometown, where she felt those things more often."
"Yeah," he said. "Maybe I did feel that in high school, but if I did, it was such a small thing that it didn't stick with me."
"I had a feeling that Kumari experienced high school differently than you did." I told him the story about Kumari's friend's brother and grandfather who treated her very poorly because of the color of her skin. "She definitely experienced things a lot differently than both you or I did. And I don't know why! I mean, I know why she experienced things differently than me, because I'm light, but I don't know why it was any different from you."
"Yeah, I don't know," he said. "We'll have to talk about it!"
"I think a lot of it may have to do with--"
"--Gender?" Adrien finished my sentence for me.
"Yeah," I said. "And I don't know what it is, specifically, that makes people more likely to hate mixed women over mixed men, but it definitely seems like it's a kind of trend."
"Kumari's had a lot more black friends than me too. And she's, I mean, dated black men. So, she should have a much more broad experience than me."
"She really got more involved in it than you or I did, I guess," I said. "Which is a good thing! But we also talked about how both of you, especially her, were immersed into the black side of the family when you were younger. Like there was never any problem. Our aunt and cousins were never like, "Oh, you guys are lighter," you know? I never felt like I was any different than Tarik or Tahir when we would play and stuff, because like...they're my cousins! So, I never really understood why people, you know, wanted us to be different, because we're family. And I know that you two experienced even more of that side of our family than I did."
"Yeah, definitely. I mean, we were young."
"It still shapes your identity, I guess," I said. "And when you live in the middle of nowhere and you're like the only black person in town and you're as light as everybody else, it's kind of confusing."
"Yeah..." Adrien said. "I don't even know if there were any other black people in my class. What else ya got?"
"Have you ever felt like you've been discriminated against?" I asked.
"Hmm...discriminated...I don't think so. Except maybe that Cub Scouts situation, which, you know, I was so young that the answer is really no, because I didn't feel it back then."
"Did you ever feel like people made assumptions about Mom, like when she'd pick us up from school or something? Or do you think your class was pretty much okay with it?"
"Yeah. Plus, everybody in high school...everybody got used to it. Maybe they did have a problem or they thought it was weird for a minute, but you know, for the next ten years, it was just like, 'Oh, look! There's Adrien's mom.'"
"I always thought it was interesting that for some people, because I'm light--"
"That it was more of a surprise to them?" Adrien asked.
"Yeah," I said. "Even though they'd known me for like seventeen years, or whatever, they would still stare at Mom. Some people asked me, people still ask me, if I'm adopted."
"Really?!!"
"Yeah, like 'That can't be your mom,' and I'm just like, "Yeah. It is my mom.'"
"Have they seen your dad??"
"You know, that's something people always ask me. They assume that Mom is white and that my dad has to be black. Have you gotten that before?"
"Not really, but I do look a lot more like Mom!"
We laughed. "You do! But people seem to assume automatically that it has to be my dad that's black."
"To me," Adrien said, "Mom doesn't even really look 'that black,' you know? I mean, she's got curly hair, but she doesn't really have real dark skin."
"It goes to show how diverse the black community is," I said. "Like, you don't have to be black as the night sky to be a black person. You can be that dark or you can be like this (points to self), and it doesn't make you any less black.
So, have you heard of colorism?" I asked.
"I have, now that you've enlightened me," said Adrien.
"Okay," I said. "So, do you think that there's a problem with colorism in the black community today?"
"I would have to say that I have no idea. I'm completely uneducated."
"It's tough. Kumari, when I asked her, said that she thinks it's probably still there, but it's better than it was when Mom was young." Adrien agreed. "I've experienced both kinds of things--both being accepted by black people when I tell them I'm black, and being denied a little bit, or being questioned."
"That makes sense," Adrien said.
We talked about the blog post I wrote in response to mary whitehead lee's poem "On Not Bein," and the subsequent SWAPA reading I did in my Race, Gender, Class, & Culture class. There were many tears shed that day, but it was a very cleansing experience for me. I told him that after that class, one of my classmates (who happened to be black), asked me, "Which one of your parents is black?" and I told him that it was my mother, and then he asked if he could see a picture. I showed him a picture because, at this point, I'm just so used to it, showing a picture of my mom so people will stop questioning me. "I'm always afraid that people will think I'm lying to them," I told Adrien.
His response was golden. "If they think that, fuck 'em!"
Next, I asked him if he'd ever felt like he wasn't "black enough" in the company of other black people.
"No," he said. "I think that because I don't necessarily look 'black,' there's not an expectation for me to be black. Maybe if I were a little darker, perhaps, but since I'm so neutral, I think it's to the point where people don't expect it, but if I tell them, they're like, "Oh, yeah...okay!" I kind of feel like I have an easy in, since it's not like, "Oh yeah, he's black"--it's like, "Ohhhh, he's black." It's an easy way to kind of get a conversation started. Whereas for a white person, talking to a black person, it might be, you know, twenty minutes or so of conversation, for me it's maybe ten, you know? So, I mean..maybe that's colorism in a sense.
"Having to explain it or talk about it?" I asked, curious to see what he'd say.
"No, not even that," he said. "Just the fact that since I look like I could be black, in certain situations it might allow me to have more of a report with a black person, you know? Like I could jump in and be like, "Yeah, I'm half black," and they'd be like, "Oh yeah, that's cool bro." So it might be more of an ice breaker instead of a big shocker."
"Instead of a bomb," I suggested.
"Instead of the, 'What???? Bullshit!' reaction."
I told Adrien about the book I read at the beginning of this semester, Loving Day by Mat Johnson. I quickly summarized the main points of the plot, saying, "The protagonist talks about how he can switch it on and off, like being black and being white."
"And it's still okay," Adrien added.
"Yeah," I said. "When he's around black people, at first they don't really trust him, but then they're okay with him as soon as he 'proves' himself. Whereas when he's with white people, they feel safe, because he looks white enough. They don't want to see that he's black."
"That's a good point. Sometimes I feel like I'm on the street and I like bump into a black guy or something, and I feel like I can say, 'Oh, that's all right brother,' whereas somebody else might not. And I don't feel like I'm going to have any repercussions for saying it."
"I guess it's like a mixed privilege," I joked. "I even feel like I can get away with it sometimes, like if the people I'm with know that I'm black. When I hang out with my black friends, my voice changes, more tot he way I talk when I'm home with mom, you know, and everything kind of changes. I even find it happening sometimes when I'm with my white friends. When I get really passionate, I start talking like mom."
"Yeah," he agreed. "It's a kind of privilege."
"Also, something that I've been talking about a lot with my advisor is how it's important to recognize the white privilege that comes with being a light-skinned black person. Like if you have the privilege of being able to pass for white in certain situations, you have to be able to acknowledge it."
"I mean, I have that privilege 100% of the time," Adrien said.
"It's unintentional," I said, "and sometimes I wish I didn't have it, but I know it's a good thing to have it because it...it keeps you safe in a lot of ways, you know? And it sucks that you have a privilege that puts so many other people down, but it also helps in some ways."
"It helps in a lot of ways! I mean, either you're white or you're black. If you're white, then you have 100% of the privilege around white people, and if you're black, you have 100% of the privilege around black people. You've got the best of both worlds!"
"Exactly, it's great!" I said. "It's great to be mixed. So, going along these lines, why do you think people are so quick to make judgements about people's race before they get to know them? Do you think we're ever going to get away from a society that's obsessed with analyzing someone's racial identity based on their skin color?"
Adrien thought for a moment before answering. "I think it obviously has a lot to do with how you're raised, it has a lot to do with the media, and it has a lot to do with stereotypes that are so ingrained into our heads that it's just second nature. Even for me. I mean, I'm white, I'm black, I'm mixed, whatever...but I still have stereotypes. And I don't mean to, but at the snap of my fingers I might make a judgement about somebody because of the way they look, or their skin color. It's just...it's natural. It's how people, you know, place themselves in society, by judging themselves on how other people look, and the most evident thing is skin color. So, I don't think it's every going to change. I mean, it might become less negative, I don't know. Or maybe it might not be less negative, because I mean...it is less negative than it used to be. But there's always going to be stereotypes, no matter what. And I think a big part of the issue is how people, you know, don't necessarily...a lot of the stereotypes are based on truth. You might not actually live the life of a gangster, as a black guy, but you may dress the part of a gangster, and that's all you need to do to further prove to people that don't spend the time to get to know you that that is what your people are like. And if that's what you look like, then people don't want to spend the time to get to know you, because they're scared of you!"
"It's all just a cycle of negativity," I said. "And sometimes positivity, I guess, because there are positive stereotypes, but most are negative, or they lead to negative things."
"It's never going to change."
"I mean, maybe one day, when we're super dead, maybe the world will be so racially ambiguous because we're all, you know, mixing with each other because that's how we survive, maybe it won't be such a big deal."
"Yeah," he agreed. "That'd be the only way it'd change, if we became so mixed that there was no difference because we'd all look...the same! We're so different that we're the same!"
I decided it was time to go back to that heavy question about being a mixed man vs. being a mixed woman. We had kind of talked about it bit by bit throughout the conversation, but I wanted to see what his final thoughts were.
"I don't know." Adrien said honestly. "I have to think about it more. The first thought that comes to my mind is that...I feel like I know more situations where mixed girls date a black man, rather than the other way around. Which might make mixed women feel the need to...fit in more, because they're in the community, in the culture...does that make sense? Maybe black men are more attracted to mixed women than black women are attracted to mixed men?"
I thought about it for a second, since it is such a heavy topic. "I think it may have something to do with just the base instinct, that if you're with someone who's 'white,' it'll just have to do. Like, they're black, but they are white, so it's okay...and maybe men are more okay with that than women are, because they [men] don't have to deal with the multiple kinds of oppression. They're oppressed, but they're only oppressed because they're black. Whereas women are oppressed because they're black and because they're women. Having a mixed identity is kind of like having a confused identity, for some, because you don't know which side you're supposed to be with, you know? So, maybe they're more likely to be with someone who's with the side they think they should be more connected with, you know?"
"Yeah, I don't know," he said. "It'd be interesting to do studies to see if there's a certain gender of mixed people that find black individuals more attractive...like if a mixed woman is more likely to marry a black man and a black woman is less likely to marry a mixed man."
"That would be a very interesting study."
"You should do it."
"One day, when I'm old and wise."
I'm very grateful that Adrien and Kumari agreed to have these discussions with me. I've been exploring a lot, in terms of racial identity, and it was so helpful to get the opinions of two people who mean so much to me already. I'm glad that they both have different opinions, and that they experienced things differently, because it showed me that there isn't just ONE WAY to be mixed--there are an infinite amount of ways that we can experience this life, and that's okay! As for the future of My Rainbow Family, keep an eye out for some other interviews with other members of my family as this semester comes to a close. Like I said at the end of Kumari's interview, this series is going to help me on my journey towards even more self-discovery...I just know it.
Kumari and Adrien recently agreed to do separate interviews with me via FaceTime to discuss their experiences growing up mixed, and growing up light-skinned. Kumari's interview can be found here.My brother has always been the calm one in the family. Sure, he can get riled up just like anybody else, but when compared to me, my sister, and my mother, he's 100% chill. He's a voice of reason in our family, and I'm grateful for the times he's calmed me down after a fight, or pushed me to go further in life. Adrien's taught me how to brush people's ignorance off with a smile, how to walk away from things when there is no reason to get yourself involved, and how to love the creative parts of our DNA by chasing careers that will encourage us to thrive. I've seen him grow a lot over the course of our lives, and I can say with complete honesty that I'm so, so proud to call him my brother. Through all the different hair styles, hair colors, jobs, and dreams, Adrien has never changed who he is at the core--my brother, my bubba.
Adrien's interview, unlike Kumari's, happened one night after I'd gotten home from one of my late night classes. We'd had some trouble with scheduling a time for an interview because of our conflicting busy schedules, but finally...we'd picked a day and time. I got home from class, set myself up, and we FaceTimed. Of course, there were some technical difficulties that we had to deal with (all on my end, obviously), but once those were sorted out, we got down to business.
I asked Adrien a lot of the same questions that I asked Kumari, and, as you could expect, the answers varied in may different ways. A lot of their thoughts on being mixed are the same, but a lot of them are also different. I started out by asking him how our experiences as mixed people had differed, and how they were the same. His response coalesced with his classic chill Adrien demeanor.
"I think that, I don't know...I don't really surround myself with people who really care about that kind of thing. So, since I was...at least out of high school, I haven't really had a lot of issues. Even when I was in high school I didn't have many issues."
His response lined up with some of the things Kumari had said, but I pointed out one of the major differences. "Kumari had more issues in high school, but as soon as she got out of Neversink, it was a lot different. There was way less discrimination, not saying that there wasn't any, but she didn't feel like she was as different as she was at our school."
"Yeah," Adrien said. "I guess I would agree with that. And I would say that you probably had a different experience, since you don't really look mixed. So, you might have had the reverse."
"What do you mean?" I asked, curious to see where this was going.
"You didn't experience anything in high school, and maybe you're experiencing more in college? I don't know."
"Well, I think I did experience things in high school, but it was from a different kind of perspective, because I can pass, and I pass every day as white, so people are more likely to be racist around me, even if they know. I remember there was a guy who made a joke about AIDS and black people, saying that AIDS happened because a black guy fucked a monkey in Africa." This prompted some laughter from both of us at the stupidity of the joke. I mean, really? That's the best you've got? I continued. "And he knew, like people knew that I was black, but they didn't care. You know? Like something Kumari and I talked about was how one of my best friends throughout high school constantly told me I wasn't black, which was honestly rude and mean of her to do. She would be like, 'You're white. Look at you, look at your skin. It's light.' And it's just like, 'You know who my mom is, you know...you've known this since we were in kindergarten.' I don't know why is has to be an issue."
Next, I asked Adrien if he'd ever unintentionally passed, for white, for something other than black, etc.
"I think most people have no idea what I am," he said honestly. "I don't think anybody literally has a clue. That's why when somebody usually starts to feel more comfortable around me, one of the first questions they ask is, 'So...what are you?'"
"Do they play the guessing game?" I asked, thinking back to the end of my conversation with Kumari.
"Not really, I usually just tell them," he laughed.
"With me, it's kind of like the guessing game but switched around," I said. "Like, as soon as they find out it's like, 'Oh yeah, I can see it. You've got the flat nose, you've got the facial structure, you've got the big butt.'"
"Some black people notice that, like they'll know right off the bat! It was funny, the other day, I was walking down the street at like 8:00pm, and...I love when this happens, it makes me feel so funny...but some 40 year old black woman's walking down the street towards me and she looks at me and she goes, "MmmmmhhhHHHMMM, hey good lookin'!" and just gives me the up and down. And she knew that I've got a little bit of the brother in me."
"That's funny!" I said. "I think people tend to...if they're more open, racially...they can pick you out."
Writing this story now reminds me of a conversation I had with a classmate just a week ago about my race. He told me that from the second he met me during our freshman year of college, he knew that I couldn't just be white. He could just tell that there was something else going on in my genes. And honestly? That made me feel amazing, that recognition.
"So, do you, or have you ever struggled with your racial identity?" I asked, not quite sure what kind of answer I would get. "You know that I've had some issues with how I identify or how people try to identify me."
"I can't say that I ever have!" Adrien said confidently. "Maybe a little in high school, but I wouldn't say struggle. More like being annoyed that people are idiots. I'm pretty comfortable."
"That's good! That's a good thing. You and Kumari are similar in that way. So, what are some of the stupidest things people have said to you about race, or about your race?"
"Hmmm..." Adrien thought for a moment. "Stupid things, huh?"
"Or racist things."
"Well, one kid used to love to call me the n-word. Other than that, not much."
"I'll find him and I'll punch him in the face," I joked, even though most of me was pretty serious.
"Some douchebag kid. He would do it in a pretending kind of way. But he was a douche. Other than that...I'm sure Mom's told you the story about me not being allowed in the Cub Scouts?"
"Yeah, but I've only ever heard it from her."
"I don't really know the story that well, I was like four or five years old. I just remember something about walking into a Cub Scout meeting...or her not feeling comfortable to let me stay...you'll have to ask her the exact story."
Here's the exact story:
Adrien wanted to join the Cub Scouts. So, he and my mother went to the school to sign up. They were waiting on line, and my mother noticed that the den mother was only calling white people that were behind her in line to register their children. My mother told Adrien that they were leaving, and he asked, "Why?" My mother said, "If the pack leader (who was one of Adrien's best friend's father) is allowing these sorts of things to go on, you're not going to be a part of this." The funny part is, my mother ended up having to take care of the den mother in the hospital, and she (the den mother) was ashamed of how she had treated my mother and my brother. My mom, when I asked her about it, said that people really can change, despite their initial bigotry.
BACK TO THE INTERVIEW!
Next, I asked Adrien the question that had both me and Kumari stumped: Do you think that it’s almost harder to be a mixed woman because of white people’s obsession with white people’s obsession with the “exotic” like you aren’t quite white, you aren’t quite black? Do you think that mixed women/women of color have it harder than mixed men/men of color? I assured him that I knew that it was a tough question. His response was honest.
"Let's come back to it. I'll think about it."
Happy with the thought that we would spend a good deal of time at the end of the conversation talking about this heavy question, I continued with the interview. "So, how do you deal with the assumptions that people make about you because of your race before they get to know who you are, or how you identify racially? Like, if people assume that you're Hispanic or Latino or something (cue laughter from Adrien). Do you think people assume things about you when they first meet you?"
"Yeah, definitely," Adrien said. "But their assumptions are always wrong, so I kind of enjoy hearing what those assumptions are."
"What are some of the assumptions that you've heard?"
"I mean, you name it! Italian, definitely Hispanic, mixed anything...I guess that's it. A lot of Hispanic."
"Mom gets mistaken for being Hispanic or Latina all the time," I said, remembering the time my mom went into a bakery and the Latino man behind the counter started to speak very rapid Spanish to her, complaining about a Hasidic woman who had wasted his time a few seconds beforehand. My mom's response? "No habla!"
"People start speaking Spanish to you because of how you look, and I'm just like, 'Sorry bud!'"
We laughed. "Kumari and I talked a lot about the guessing game, like how people need to know what you are."
"Yeah," he said, "it's not generally in an entirely negative way."
"People are just curious," I said. "But it's negative in that they feel they have to know what you are, because it's still so important to people."
"They just wanna know why I'm so damn good lookin'!" Oh, Adrien. Ever the jokester.
"They want to know where they can get that complexion! They're like, 'What ethnic blend created this???'" We laughed again. Adrien said he wasn't about to give anybody the secret recipe, because our DNA worked hard to create such a plethora of racial features. Next, I asked him if he'd ever felt like he had to prove himself because of the color of his skin, or if he'd ever felt like he had to prove he wasn't a stereotype. His answer was quick.
"No."
"That's good!" I said, happy with his response, because it's always good to see that we're starting to move past some of these negative things. "These are good things."
"What did Kumari say?"
"She said that it was mainly in high school, in our hometown, where she felt those things more often."
"Yeah," he said. "Maybe I did feel that in high school, but if I did, it was such a small thing that it didn't stick with me."
"I had a feeling that Kumari experienced high school differently than you did." I told him the story about Kumari's friend's brother and grandfather who treated her very poorly because of the color of her skin. "She definitely experienced things a lot differently than both you or I did. And I don't know why! I mean, I know why she experienced things differently than me, because I'm light, but I don't know why it was any different from you."
"Yeah, I don't know," he said. "We'll have to talk about it!"
"I think a lot of it may have to do with--"
"--Gender?" Adrien finished my sentence for me.
"Yeah," I said. "And I don't know what it is, specifically, that makes people more likely to hate mixed women over mixed men, but it definitely seems like it's a kind of trend."
"Kumari's had a lot more black friends than me too. And she's, I mean, dated black men. So, she should have a much more broad experience than me."
"She really got more involved in it than you or I did, I guess," I said. "Which is a good thing! But we also talked about how both of you, especially her, were immersed into the black side of the family when you were younger. Like there was never any problem. Our aunt and cousins were never like, "Oh, you guys are lighter," you know? I never felt like I was any different than Tarik or Tahir when we would play and stuff, because like...they're my cousins! So, I never really understood why people, you know, wanted us to be different, because we're family. And I know that you two experienced even more of that side of our family than I did."
"Yeah, definitely. I mean, we were young."
"It still shapes your identity, I guess," I said. "And when you live in the middle of nowhere and you're like the only black person in town and you're as light as everybody else, it's kind of confusing."
"Yeah..." Adrien said. "I don't even know if there were any other black people in my class. What else ya got?"
"Have you ever felt like you've been discriminated against?" I asked.
"Hmm...discriminated...I don't think so. Except maybe that Cub Scouts situation, which, you know, I was so young that the answer is really no, because I didn't feel it back then."
"Did you ever feel like people made assumptions about Mom, like when she'd pick us up from school or something? Or do you think your class was pretty much okay with it?"
"Yeah. Plus, everybody in high school...everybody got used to it. Maybe they did have a problem or they thought it was weird for a minute, but you know, for the next ten years, it was just like, 'Oh, look! There's Adrien's mom.'"
"I always thought it was interesting that for some people, because I'm light--"
"That it was more of a surprise to them?" Adrien asked.
"Yeah," I said. "Even though they'd known me for like seventeen years, or whatever, they would still stare at Mom. Some people asked me, people still ask me, if I'm adopted."
"Really?!!"
"Yeah, like 'That can't be your mom,' and I'm just like, "Yeah. It is my mom.'"
"Have they seen your dad??"
"You know, that's something people always ask me. They assume that Mom is white and that my dad has to be black. Have you gotten that before?"
"Not really, but I do look a lot more like Mom!"
We laughed. "You do! But people seem to assume automatically that it has to be my dad that's black."
"To me," Adrien said, "Mom doesn't even really look 'that black,' you know? I mean, she's got curly hair, but she doesn't really have real dark skin."
"It goes to show how diverse the black community is," I said. "Like, you don't have to be black as the night sky to be a black person. You can be that dark or you can be like this (points to self), and it doesn't make you any less black.
So, have you heard of colorism?" I asked.
"I have, now that you've enlightened me," said Adrien.
"Okay," I said. "So, do you think that there's a problem with colorism in the black community today?"
"I would have to say that I have no idea. I'm completely uneducated."
"It's tough. Kumari, when I asked her, said that she thinks it's probably still there, but it's better than it was when Mom was young." Adrien agreed. "I've experienced both kinds of things--both being accepted by black people when I tell them I'm black, and being denied a little bit, or being questioned."
"That makes sense," Adrien said.
We talked about the blog post I wrote in response to mary whitehead lee's poem "On Not Bein," and the subsequent SWAPA reading I did in my Race, Gender, Class, & Culture class. There were many tears shed that day, but it was a very cleansing experience for me. I told him that after that class, one of my classmates (who happened to be black), asked me, "Which one of your parents is black?" and I told him that it was my mother, and then he asked if he could see a picture. I showed him a picture because, at this point, I'm just so used to it, showing a picture of my mom so people will stop questioning me. "I'm always afraid that people will think I'm lying to them," I told Adrien.
His response was golden. "If they think that, fuck 'em!"
Next, I asked him if he'd ever felt like he wasn't "black enough" in the company of other black people.
"No," he said. "I think that because I don't necessarily look 'black,' there's not an expectation for me to be black. Maybe if I were a little darker, perhaps, but since I'm so neutral, I think it's to the point where people don't expect it, but if I tell them, they're like, "Oh, yeah...okay!" I kind of feel like I have an easy in, since it's not like, "Oh yeah, he's black"--it's like, "Ohhhh, he's black." It's an easy way to kind of get a conversation started. Whereas for a white person, talking to a black person, it might be, you know, twenty minutes or so of conversation, for me it's maybe ten, you know? So, I mean..maybe that's colorism in a sense.
"Having to explain it or talk about it?" I asked, curious to see what he'd say.
"No, not even that," he said. "Just the fact that since I look like I could be black, in certain situations it might allow me to have more of a report with a black person, you know? Like I could jump in and be like, "Yeah, I'm half black," and they'd be like, "Oh yeah, that's cool bro." So it might be more of an ice breaker instead of a big shocker."
"Instead of a bomb," I suggested.
"Instead of the, 'What???? Bullshit!' reaction."
I told Adrien about the book I read at the beginning of this semester, Loving Day by Mat Johnson. I quickly summarized the main points of the plot, saying, "The protagonist talks about how he can switch it on and off, like being black and being white."
"And it's still okay," Adrien added.
"Yeah," I said. "When he's around black people, at first they don't really trust him, but then they're okay with him as soon as he 'proves' himself. Whereas when he's with white people, they feel safe, because he looks white enough. They don't want to see that he's black."
"That's a good point. Sometimes I feel like I'm on the street and I like bump into a black guy or something, and I feel like I can say, 'Oh, that's all right brother,' whereas somebody else might not. And I don't feel like I'm going to have any repercussions for saying it."
"I guess it's like a mixed privilege," I joked. "I even feel like I can get away with it sometimes, like if the people I'm with know that I'm black. When I hang out with my black friends, my voice changes, more tot he way I talk when I'm home with mom, you know, and everything kind of changes. I even find it happening sometimes when I'm with my white friends. When I get really passionate, I start talking like mom."
"Yeah," he agreed. "It's a kind of privilege."
"Also, something that I've been talking about a lot with my advisor is how it's important to recognize the white privilege that comes with being a light-skinned black person. Like if you have the privilege of being able to pass for white in certain situations, you have to be able to acknowledge it."
"I mean, I have that privilege 100% of the time," Adrien said.
"It's unintentional," I said, "and sometimes I wish I didn't have it, but I know it's a good thing to have it because it...it keeps you safe in a lot of ways, you know? And it sucks that you have a privilege that puts so many other people down, but it also helps in some ways."
"It helps in a lot of ways! I mean, either you're white or you're black. If you're white, then you have 100% of the privilege around white people, and if you're black, you have 100% of the privilege around black people. You've got the best of both worlds!"
"Exactly, it's great!" I said. "It's great to be mixed. So, going along these lines, why do you think people are so quick to make judgements about people's race before they get to know them? Do you think we're ever going to get away from a society that's obsessed with analyzing someone's racial identity based on their skin color?"
Adrien thought for a moment before answering. "I think it obviously has a lot to do with how you're raised, it has a lot to do with the media, and it has a lot to do with stereotypes that are so ingrained into our heads that it's just second nature. Even for me. I mean, I'm white, I'm black, I'm mixed, whatever...but I still have stereotypes. And I don't mean to, but at the snap of my fingers I might make a judgement about somebody because of the way they look, or their skin color. It's just...it's natural. It's how people, you know, place themselves in society, by judging themselves on how other people look, and the most evident thing is skin color. So, I don't think it's every going to change. I mean, it might become less negative, I don't know. Or maybe it might not be less negative, because I mean...it is less negative than it used to be. But there's always going to be stereotypes, no matter what. And I think a big part of the issue is how people, you know, don't necessarily...a lot of the stereotypes are based on truth. You might not actually live the life of a gangster, as a black guy, but you may dress the part of a gangster, and that's all you need to do to further prove to people that don't spend the time to get to know you that that is what your people are like. And if that's what you look like, then people don't want to spend the time to get to know you, because they're scared of you!"
"It's all just a cycle of negativity," I said. "And sometimes positivity, I guess, because there are positive stereotypes, but most are negative, or they lead to negative things."
"It's never going to change."
"I mean, maybe one day, when we're super dead, maybe the world will be so racially ambiguous because we're all, you know, mixing with each other because that's how we survive, maybe it won't be such a big deal."
"Yeah," he agreed. "That'd be the only way it'd change, if we became so mixed that there was no difference because we'd all look...the same! We're so different that we're the same!"
I decided it was time to go back to that heavy question about being a mixed man vs. being a mixed woman. We had kind of talked about it bit by bit throughout the conversation, but I wanted to see what his final thoughts were.
"I don't know." Adrien said honestly. "I have to think about it more. The first thought that comes to my mind is that...I feel like I know more situations where mixed girls date a black man, rather than the other way around. Which might make mixed women feel the need to...fit in more, because they're in the community, in the culture...does that make sense? Maybe black men are more attracted to mixed women than black women are attracted to mixed men?"
I thought about it for a second, since it is such a heavy topic. "I think it may have something to do with just the base instinct, that if you're with someone who's 'white,' it'll just have to do. Like, they're black, but they are white, so it's okay...and maybe men are more okay with that than women are, because they [men] don't have to deal with the multiple kinds of oppression. They're oppressed, but they're only oppressed because they're black. Whereas women are oppressed because they're black and because they're women. Having a mixed identity is kind of like having a confused identity, for some, because you don't know which side you're supposed to be with, you know? So, maybe they're more likely to be with someone who's with the side they think they should be more connected with, you know?"
"Yeah, I don't know," he said. "It'd be interesting to do studies to see if there's a certain gender of mixed people that find black individuals more attractive...like if a mixed woman is more likely to marry a black man and a black woman is less likely to marry a mixed man."
"That would be a very interesting study."
"You should do it."
"One day, when I'm old and wise."
I'm very grateful that Adrien and Kumari agreed to have these discussions with me. I've been exploring a lot, in terms of racial identity, and it was so helpful to get the opinions of two people who mean so much to me already. I'm glad that they both have different opinions, and that they experienced things differently, because it showed me that there isn't just ONE WAY to be mixed--there are an infinite amount of ways that we can experience this life, and that's okay! As for the future of My Rainbow Family, keep an eye out for some other interviews with other members of my family as this semester comes to a close. Like I said at the end of Kumari's interview, this series is going to help me on my journey towards even more self-discovery...I just know it.